This episode features The Chainsmokers (Alex and Drew), who went from world-famous DJs to venture capitalists running Mantis fund. They invest in founders who 'would do this no matter what,' then support them like a record label—high-touch and responsive. Key holdings: Radiant Nuclear (nuclear startup, progress solid, first test in ~7 years); Poppy (returned ~30x, but they now avoid consumer brands in principle); and Uber (small early bet, but a learning experience).
The Chainsmokers (Alex Pall and Drew Taggart) transitioned from global superstar DJs to venture capitalists, founding the fund Mantis. The investment philosophy they share is consistent with their music creation: both adopt a high-touch, relationship-driven approach, investing in founders who relent
Here is the English translation of the investment research notes:
The Chainsmokers (Alex Pall and Drew Taggart) have transitioned from world-class DJs to venture capitalists, founding the Mantis fund. The core of their investment philosophy is: seeking founders who "pursue their vision without external validation" and supporting them with a high-touch, relationship-driven approach, much like the record label supported them back in the day. This philosophy is consistent with their music creation process.
Alex Pall and Drew Taggart believe the core of investing is determining whether a founder has an intrinsic "must-do" drive. They cite the framework of Alex Bard from Redpoint: "Invest in people who would pursue this idea no matter what. Even if they fail, they will start over from a different angle."
This judgment standard comes directly from their own experience. Drew mentioned that when they were just starting out, their core characteristic was not superior technical skill but an "all-in" determination: Drew quit his job, while Alex carried $150,000 in debt and lived on a friend's sofa. This "all-in" state forced them to put in more effort. This "relentless" will constitutes the core non-negotiable for the founders they seek.
Deduction and Validation: Such founders typically have an "expert" background, meaning they have firsthand experience with the pain points in a specific field (e.g., a former Salesforce employee discovering a system problem and starting a company). In contrast, they are wary of "opportunistic" founders driven by market hype (e.g., "AI is hot, so I'm going to start an AI company"), believing the latter are likely only capable of short-term success.
Alex and Drew compare the relationship between top-tier funds and founders to that of a record label and an artist, and Mantis's positioning is to be the "sixth man of a championship team" — a highly responsive, high-touch, flexible support role. They observe that the relationship between many entrepreneurs and investors is similar to that between many artists and their record labels: there is a dilemma of "wanting to help but not knowing how."
Mantis's strategy is to be a "utility player," proactively asking founders, "What can I help you with?" and providing specific assistance within their capabilities, such as: writing a personalized introduction email, contacting specialized recruiters, or leveraging their own resources in the music industry (e.g., collaboration with Brazilian superstar Alok) to offer insights for market promotion. They emphasize that this "high-touch, high-responsiveness" service model originates from what they themselves most desired but never received when collaborating with their record label (Columbia Disruptor) in their early years.
Data Support: Drew mentioned that they once replied to a founder's quarterly update, and the founder was surprised, saying, "No one has ever replied." This seemingly small gesture became the starting point for building their competitive advantage.
In an era of extreme content abundance and lowered barriers to creation with AI, the work itself is no longer the only moat; how to build an immersive "world" and having "taste" are the key competitive advantages. They point out that the number of songs uploaded weekly to Spotify has grown from 10,000 when they started to about 190,000, and is expected to reach millions in the future. In this "information flood," the importance of "brand" and "identity" far exceeds the past.
Taking Fred Again, Doja Cat, and Charli XCX as examples, they note that the success of these artists lies not in a single "hit single" but in their ability to build a complete, participatory "world" (world-building). This maps to investing: it welcomes founders who can define a new aesthetic, a new vibe, or a new attitude. Alex mentioned that they even considered learning to code, but quickly realized that with the emergence of AI code generation tools (like Cursor), skills themselves are no longer important, and the core returns to "taste" — the intuition to judge what is good and what is worth pursuing.
Uncertainty: They admit that how to prove to fans that they "truly care" about the work is a challenge they are still exploring. Any "world-building" must be authentic, not deliberate marketing.
Drew and Alex share a "torturous" mindset they have when creating music: constantly striving to hear "new sounds never heard before," and once achieved, immediately pursuing an even higher goal — this "innovator's dilemma" is the driving force for continuous progress. Drew compares this persistent curiosity and slight dissatisfaction to the "paranoia" required in entrepreneurship.
This mindset translates into a core principle in venture capital: a high tolerance for failure. They note that a music career is supported by a few big hits, while most other works may perform modestly. The same applies to venture capital: "You will eventually support a few extremely successful companies, but most will not be super successful. You cannot conclude that you are a bad investor because of that." Every failure is a learning and iteration process.
Historical Analogy: They explain their early "growth hacking" strategy (making remixes for independent musicians and personally emailing bloggers) as a necessary "grind." They emphasize that behind every success there is an untold story of hardship; one cannot just look at the "conclusion" of success while ignoring the "struggle" in the process.
| Position | Guest Attitude | Key Data |
|---|---|---|
| Poppy | Successful investment case (profited) | Approximately 30x return. However, Alex says if re-evaluated now, they might not invest again, as they now avoid consumer packaged goods (CPG) in principle. |
| Radiant Nuclear | Hold/Bullish | Invested based on the intuition of "I would regret it if I missed it." Founder Doug has a top-tier academic background (Pedigree). First test expected in about 7 years; progress is currently excellent. |
| Uber | Hold/Review | Participated in Uber's Series S round, but the return was small (about $6,000). Drew considers this his early investment enlightenment on "companies that change the world." |
| Alok (Brazilian artist, collaborator) | Neutral/Bullish on his market | As a collaborator, his market in Brazil is huge, having performed for 2 million people in Bahia. |
| Zach Bryan | Neutral/Appreciating his model | As a successful example of being "brandless," his "world-building" is "he is just himself," with sincere work and no excessive embellishment. |
| Fred Again | Highly appreciative | As a musician, his ability to "build a world" and his positive attitude towards mistakes are highly regarded. |
1. High-touch, high-responsiveness is the core differentiator for Mantis. (Drew Taggart) They proactively reply to founders' quarterly updates and provide personalized help based on them. This is very rare among other celebrity investors and is key to building trust and reputation.
2. "Invest in people who would do this anyway, regardless of the outcome." (Alex Pall, citing Redpoint's Alex Bard) This is the core criterion for judging whether a founder is worth investing in, surpassing short-term market hype.
3. "I realized that in investing, I am returning to what we do best: being the sixth man on a championship team." (Drew Taggart) Mantis's goal is not to lead rounds, but to partner with the best funds and founders, learning and building their brand through flexible, supplementary support.
4. "Taste is the ultimate moat." (Drew Taggart) In an era where AI tools erase skill barriers, the intuition to judge what is good and what is worth pursuing will become an irreplaceable capability, applicable to both music and investing.
5. "Anxiety is the long-term engine; failure is the norm of progress." (Drew Taggart and Alex Pall) The tormenting feeling of pursuing "sounds never heard before," along with the acceptance that most works/investments will not succeed, is a driving force for continuous progress, not an obstacle.
6. "In an age of abundance, building a 'world' is more important than creating a 'song'." (Alex Pall) When content is overwhelming, successful artists and entrepreneurs provide a participatory, deep experience (world-building), rather than just a "product."
7. "A founder's 'expert' identity is more reliable than an 'opportunist'." (Alex Pall) A founder who has genuine pain points in a specific field and seeks solutions has a much higher probability of success than one who simply wants to chase the current hot trend.
8. "The fear of 'being abandoned' in venture capital is no different from that of early-stage musicians." (Drew Taggart) The experience of "being rejected" and "proving yourself" they mention is highly similar to their early days promoting bands, which allows them to deeply empathize with founders.