This interview features Kinkos founder Paul Orfalea, who says business is art, not science. He warns founders not to 'love' their business—he saw laser printers coming to kill copy shops and sold Kinkos in 1997 (early, but avoided disruption). He also says good salespeople will sell you broke and good employees will annoy you, which is normal. Key holdings: Kinkos (the copy chain he founded and sold); Yvon Chouinard (Patagonia founder, admired for donating the company to environmental causes).
Paul Orfalea started from a copy shop in California in 1970 and built Kinkos into a $2 billion multinational enterprise within 30 years. He proposed unconventional business concepts: subordinates should make you feel frustrated, and one should not love one's own business. He emphasized that "good sa
Paul Orfalea, founder of Kinko’s, started from a single-car garage in California and built a copy shop into a $2 billion multinational enterprise within 30 years. A non-traditional leader, he was dyslexic, ranked near the bottom of his high school class (1,198th out of 1,200), and considered himself “unemployable.” The core themes of this episode are: business is an art, not a science; founders should be wary of “loving” their business; they must find balance between “spreading the glory” and “remaining objective”; and they should recognize that “good salespeople can bankrupt you, and good subordinates can trouble you” is the normal state of organizational operations.
Paul Orfalea argues that business is more like art than science, and success comes from embracing "imperfection" and tolerating "ambiguity."
He cites the analogy of Da Vinci: "If Da Vinci came back to life and said, 'I could add a little more pink in that part,' you're an artist. Business is not science." This view permeates his entire business philosophy. He explains that "C students" are able to lead enterprises precisely because they do not pursue perfection—quoting his mother: "A students work for B students, C students run the business, and D students have buildings named after them."
Orfalea emphasizes that evolution itself comes from "imperfection": "If cell division were perfect, we would never have evolved. We evolved from imperfection." Therefore, founders should not be harsh on themselves but should accept that "things will never be as they should be"—one of the fundamental ambiguities of running a business.
Key Mechanism: He manages by "not reading"—he does not read reports, does not read emails, and relies only on "looking" and "asking." He "saw" that laser printers would disrupt the copy business, so he sold out early; he "saw" that Yellow Pages advertising had a fixed cost but only cost $1 per customer, so he knew not to cut it. He concludes: "Don't just look at the computer; use your eyes to see."
Inference: Orfalea implies that business judgment relies on "intuition plus common sense" rather than complex models. Founders who are overly dependent on frameworks and theories may miss ground-level signals. Falsification condition: If a founder cannot step away from the "data window" to observe actual operations—such as customer queues or employee lunch conversations—their judgment will be systematically weakened.
Orfalea proposes a counterintuitive management principle: excellent subordinates and salesmen should make you feel "bothered" and "squeezed."
He explains: "A good salesman will sell you into bankruptcy. If you listen too much to sales, you will never have enough inventory and will never set prices high enough." His father taught him: "A good salesman will annoy the hell out of you. So will good subordinates. When you talk to your people, they should bring you things you don't want to hear."
He further distinguishes "good subordinates" from "cowardly teams": He admits that initially at Kinkos, he overemphasized "harmony" and lacked "candor." He regrets not instilling a culture of "questioning" in the organization: "If I could do it over, I would inject more healthy disagreement. We lacked candor."
Mechanism Breakdown: He describes an "ideal tension" — the organization should be composed of "confrontation" between different functions, not consensus. His father would "surround himself with people who bothered him." He cites Eisenhower's example: "When I was a general, people listened to me; when I was president, people no longer listened to me. These are two different skills." His way of managing Kinkos was "herding a bunch of cats" — relying on the autonomous judgment of local managers.
Deduction: Orfalea emphasizes that founders should actively seek subordinates who "make you uncomfortable," rather than pursuing "easy to get along with." Falsification signal: If there is no conflict in employee meetings and discussions are all consensus, it indicates that the organization has fallen into "false harmony" and may miss critical adjustments.
Orfalea believes that founders should not "love" their business but rather "enjoy" it; once it becomes "love," they lose objectivity.
He confessed: "In the mid-1990s, I saw across the street that laser printers were coming to kick my ass. I knew we'd be in trouble. But everyone inside the company loved the business. I truly believe you shouldn't love your business. You can enjoy it, but once it becomes love, you lose objectivity. The business is a tool you own; it doesn't own you. You love your family, not your business."
He used this to explain why Kinkos was sold in 1997—he "sold early," but thereby avoided the subsequent disruption. He quoted Bernard Baruch: "His biggest regret was selling too early. But I knew the laser printer was coming."
Historical Context: This is consistent with his early acceptance of "imperfection"—he did not expect Kinkos to be a "forever good business." He acknowledged Kinkos was a "timing issue"—"On the spectrum from bad to great business, it depends on timing."
Deduction: Orfalea implies that founders should always view the business as a "replaceable tool" and remain alert to "external threats." Falsification Condition: If founders develop a "family-style" emotional attachment to the business (e.g., "we are the Kinkos family"), then the speed of adjustment when facing disruptive technologies will slow significantly. He mentioned that people inside the company once questioned the core value of "Kinkos family," because "family members all look alike, which is not diverse."
Orfalea proposes a key incentive principle: people will do a lot for "glory", and founders should "spread glory and keep the money".
He cites the military as an example: "Who, in their right mind, would say 'I will attack that machine gun for $50 million'? No one. But the military gives you a little feather, and you can't wait to attack the machine gun." He believes that recognition is a more effective incentive lever than money, and at a very low cost.
Mechanism Breakdown: He drives employees through "low-cost recognition" such as the "Employee of the Month" award, anniversary pins, annual picnics, etc. He emphasizes the value of "thanks": "I get more from heartfelt thanks than anything else." He cites the example of "Dan Fredrickson" — this president is very good at "recognition", doing simple but effective things like "distributing pins and medals".
Data Chain: He mentions "what I get the most is 'thank you' and a sense of recognition" — this is his personal understanding of "spreading glory". He implies that the high marginal cost of monetary incentives erodes profits, while the marginal cost of "glory" incentives is zero.
Deduction: Orfalea believes that when resources are limited, founders should prioritize designing a "recognition system" rather than piling on bonuses. Falsification Condition: If employees are indifferent to non-monetary incentives such as "pins, medals, public praise", it indicates that the organizational culture has become "monetized" and the incentive structure needs to be reassessed.
Orfalea repeatedly emphasizes "I'm just in it for the money" — but then adds, "You have to bring people to a higher level," hinting that he himself is weighing the contradiction between "for money" and "for meaning."
He says: "I work for the money. I don't like reading. Why should I care about copying or binding? I've always been driven by money." But immediately after, he cites Steve Jobs' case: "Jobs said to Scully, 'Do you want to be remembered for selling sugar water to kids? We're helping people rethink life.'" He uses this case to motivate employees: "I try to make everyone feel 'we're working for a higher mission,' while at the same time we're also working for the money."
Unique Insight: This "dual narrative" itself is a management technique. Orfalea seems to imply that founders need to provide a "sense of meaning" for the team to drive them, while maintaining a pragmatic "money-oriented" focus for themselves. He admits that "for the money" sounds "unfashionable," but insists it is authentic.
Deduction: Orfalea's view contains a potential paradox: if a founder publicly declares "I'm just in it for the money," it may damage team morale; but if he completely denies the monetary motive, he may lose objectivity. He chooses to "talk about meaning to the team and talk about money to himself" — a "split" but practical management strategy. Falsification Condition: If the team becomes skeptical of the "meaning narrative," or the founder himself loses faith in "meaning," this dual narrative collapses.
| Target | Guest Attitude | Key Data |
|---|---|---|
| Kinkos | Sold, founder's perspective | Founded in 1970, sold in 1997 for approximately $2 billion; calendar costing $1.5 per store sold for $30; Yellow Pages ad cost per customer $1 |
| Yvon Chouinard (Patagonia) | Highly praised | Donated all assets to environmental protection; his book "Let My People Go Surfing" is rated as "one of the greatest business books" |
1. "Business is an art, not a science." (Orfalea) — Acceptance of ambiguity is at the core of good business judgment. He cites Da Vinci's analogy, suggesting that founders should embrace "imperfection" and "ambiguity" rather than pursuing precise models.
2. "Good salespeople will bankrupt you; good subordinates will trouble you." (Orfalea) — Great salespeople constantly squeeze inventory and pricing; great subordinates persistently bring you information you don't want to hear. Founders should actively seek this "tension" rather than pursuing "harmony."
3. "Don't love your business, enjoy it." (Orfalea) — Love destroys objectivity. He saw the threat of laser printers early and therefore sold Kinkos in 1997 — even though he sold "too early," he avoided being disrupted.
4. "Spread the glory, keep the money." (Orfalea) — People will do more for "glory." Low-cost recognition (such as "Employee of the Month" awards, anniversary badges) has more leverage than monetary incentives, and its marginal cost is zero.
5. "If cells divided perfectly, we would never evolve." (Orfalea) — Accepting "imperfection" is the foundation of progress. He analogizes this to business, believing that founders should not blame themselves or their teams for "mistakes."
6. "Talk meaning to the team, talk money to yourself." (Orfalea) — Founders need to provide a "sense of purpose" for the team (like Jobs' "helping people rethink life"), while maintaining their own pragmatic "money orientation." This is a practical "split" management strategy.
7. "C students from business school run the company; D students name the buildings." (Orfalea) — He quotes his mother, suggesting that "non-traditional" backgrounds (such as his own dyslexia) are actually advantageous in business because they rely on "intuition" rather than "frameworks."