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Colossus (Invest Like the Best / Business Breakdowns)Podcast15 Feb 2022Source: joincolossus.comHost: Patrick O'Shaughnessy

Joey Levin - Building an Anti-Conglomerate - [Invest Like the Best, EP. 264]

In plain words

This interview explains IAC's unusual approach: it's an 'anti-conglomerate' that holds businesses long-term and spins them off to shareholders when mature, instead of forcing them to cooperate. CEO Joey Levin says IAC's key edge is 'no exit deadline'—they can wait for returns. He sees the internet shifting from giving lots of choices to giving just one answer, like Angi now telling you exactly how much it costs to fix your house and handling it. Key holdings: Expedia (first spin-off, now big), Match Group (includes Tinder, incubated internally), and Angi (transforming, new service has much higher customer satisfaction).

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IAC CEO Joey Levin articulated the company's "anti-conglomerate" operating philosophy during the program: IAC, as a holding company, focuses on building world-class digital businesses rather than traditional centralized conglomerate management. Since its founding by Barry Diller, IAC has incubated 1

~12 min full read · 8 sections
Deep Analysis

At a Glance

Joey Levin is the CEO of IAC, having joined the company in 2003 and assumed the role of CEO in 2015. The central theme of this episode is IAC’s unique operating philosophy as an "anti-conglomerate conglomerate"—one that does not pursue centralization or synergies, but instead creates value through long-term holdings and timely spin-offs of mature businesses. Joey Levin argues that IAC’s core competitive advantage lies in its investment time horizon with "no exit deadline" and its capital allocation attitude of "imposing no constraints on businesses"—all options (including spin-offs, buybacks, issuances, and acquisitions) remain on the table at all times, with no asset considered sacred or untouchable.


Theme 1: IAC's "Anti-Conglomerate" Operating System – Long-Term Holding + Timely Spin-offs

Joey Levin points out that the fundamental difference between IAC and most holding companies lies in two aspects: an infinite time horizon and a willingness to spin off mature businesses to shareholders.

  • Time Horizon Determines Behavior Patterns: "Most capital has a term—you enter at a certain period and exit at a certain period. This incentive structure dictates what you do during the 'entry period' and the 'exit period.' For us, there is no exit period." Even when spinning off, it is not about "dumping at the best time" but rather "handing it over to ourselves"—the spun-off company must continue to perform well.
  • The Spin-off Philosophy Evolved Bottom-Up: The spin-off of Expedia in 2004/2005 was the first instance. It was not an intentional model-building move at the time, but rather "the right decision for Expedia at that moment." It was only after doing it several times that IAC realized "this is a model worth continuing."
  • The Risk of Not Spinning Off: If a business remains under the parent company's umbrella for too long, it will "stop optimizing for its own success and start optimizing for something else, eventually shrinking."

Joey Levin emphasizes that IAC does not pursue centralization because the cost side is finite while the revenue side is infinite—"If you take away the control and flexibility of a business head just to save one accounting position, the cost outweighs the benefit. I would rather be slightly inefficient on the cost side and let the business head have full accountability and the ability to pursue maximum upside."


Theme 2: Embracing Change — From "Infinite Choices" to "Give Me the Best One"

Joey Levin believes that the core evolutionary direction of the internet is not to offer more choices, but ultimately to "give me just one right answer" — a key insight driving the success of IAC's businesses.

  • Historical Context: The early internet's value was "infinite choices" (Google search returning 3 billion results), but today's user interfaces — especially voice — demand "just give me one." Joey Levin uses Angi as an example: from the Yellow Pages (a list with no information) → Angie's List (a list with ratings) → HomeAdvisor (matching 3 providers) → today's Angi ("You tell me what's wrong with your house, I tell you it costs $250 to fix, you give me your credit card, and I handle it"). "This is the highest customer satisfaction product ever in this category, by an entire order of magnitude."
  • Mechanism Breakdown: This is not a technology issue, but a "convenience" issue — technology is merely the tool to achieve the next level of convenience. "When the future is obvious, the criterion is: Is this more convenient for the customer?"
  • Extrapolation: Joey Levin argues that the true value of Web3 and crypto lies not in the technology itself, but in the fact that "unique digital items can now exist" — "Everyone knows unique physical items can exist, but no one ever imagined unique digital items could exist. Now they can, and this will transform many industries." He predicts that Web3 will eventually "disappear" like mobile internet — no one will say "this is a mobile product"; it will simply be part of the product.

Theme 3: Capital Allocation — Qualitative Over Quantitative, All Options Always on the Table

Joey Levin describes IAC’s capital allocation process: weekly discussions, with all options (acquisitions, spin-offs, buybacks, issuances, convertible bonds) always on the table, and no asset considered sacred or untouchable.

  • Qualitative vs. Quantitative: "We don’t dive into the numbers until we’ve made a qualitative decision. The numbers are in our heads, but we don’t run models until we feel the strategy makes sense." Joey Levin emphasizes that no deal’s success hinges on paying 10%-30% more or less — "Success depends on whether we correctly identified a massive future. If we’re wrong qualitatively, we’re wrong; as long as we haven’t bet the company, paying 30% more or less won’t change the outcome."
  • Full Toolkit: IAC has used parent company stock, subsidiary stock (both public and private), convertible bonds, and pure debt. Key principle: when spinning off, aim to "recover the cost basis" (tax-free), allowing capital to be recycled; the portion distributed to shareholders is pure profit.
  • Classic Case — About.com’s Failure and Rebirth: At acquisition, it was expected to generate $30 million in profit, and through synergies it reached $60 million in the first year. But then "the world no longer wanted horizontal information; it wanted vertical information," and the business rapidly declined to a $20 million annual loss. Neil Vogel’s team tried four different strategies in succession; the first three failed, and the fourth decided to "break About.com into six vertical brands" (Very Well, The Spruce, etc.). After a "sharp V-shaped" recovery, it has sustained growth ever since, becoming Dotdash Meredith.

Theme 4: Brand Strategy — When to Merge and When to Retain Multiple Brands

Joey Levin argues that the decision to merge brands or retain multiple brands hinges on whether "the second brand has a reason to exist" — simply aiming for more shelf space is insufficient.

  • The Angi Lesson: IAC simultaneously owned Angie's List and HomeAdvisor, but "we couldn't answer the question, 'In what scenario would a user choose Angie's List over HomeAdvisor?'" HomeAdvisor spent 10 times the brand budget of Angie's List, yet brand awareness never took off ("If you mention HomeAdvisor at a cocktail party, the response is, 'Oh, Angie's List'"). The eventual decision was to merge into a single brand, Angi. Joey Levin admits: "We dragged this out for too long. Barry had been pushing for this change earlier, and I resisted. He was right."
  • The Dotdash Meredith Counterexample: The same content (e.g., vacuum cleaner reviews) can be written from different angles for different audiences, making it reasonable to retain multiple brands.
  • Inference: Joey Levin believes the key to brand strategy is "starting from the consumer's mindset" — if two brands represent the same category in the consumer's mind, they should be merged; if they represent different categories or different audiences, they should be retained.

Theme 5: Lessons from Barry Diller — Constantly Raising the Bar + Staying Open-Minded

Joey Levin believes that Barry Diller's two most defining traits are "constantly raising the bar" and "staying open-minded and willing to be challenged."

  • Raising the Bar: "You come in and tell me that if we do everything right, we can get this business to $100 million in revenue or even $100 million in profit — why bother? Is your goal that small?" Joey Levin uses the analogy of a pencil in the conference room: Some think Barry is nitpicking by caring about whether a pencil is sharpened, but "who wants to hold a meeting in a room where all the pencils are dull? Either fix it or throw it away — don't tolerate something that doesn't work."
  • Openness and Candor: "If you don't talk about problems, you can't solve them. If you don't raise challenges, you might not get the right decisions." Joey Levin emphasizes that this culture of candor is one of IAC's most valuable assets.

Mentioned Positions

Position Analyst View Key Data
Expedia Positive (IAC's first spin-off case) Spin-off in 2004/2005
Match Group (including Tinder, Match.com, OkCupid, Hinge) Positive (successful incubation and spin-off case) Tinder originated from IAC's internal incubator Hatch Labs; Match.com faced the challenge of "giving 30% of revenue to Apple" during the mobile transition
Angi (formerly Angie's List + HomeAdvisor) Positive (currently undergoing transformation) IAC holds 85% of public shares; HomeAdvisor brand spent 10x more than Angie's List but has lower brand awareness; new "fixed-price" product has customer satisfaction "an order of magnitude higher"
Dotdash Meredith (formerly About.com) Positive (successful turnaround case) About.com went from $60M profit to a $20M annual loss, then split into 6 vertical brands to achieve a V-shaped recovery
Care.com Neutral (mentioned as an IAC portfolio business) No specific data provided
Live Nation Positive (mentioned as an IAC spin-off success) No specific data provided
OR (new addiction medication business) Early-stage incubation Started from a single state, received positive feedback after testing the product with an "ugly box"
MGM Not explicitly stated Mentioned as a case of IAC's large-scale capital allocation
Ask Jeeves Positive (acquisition case) IAC acquired it using stock while simultaneously buying back half of the issued shares
Handy Positive (acquisition case) Through Handy, IAC obtained the current Angi CEO, Ashin
Booking.com Positive (mentioned as an industry benchmark) "Perhaps the most successful scaled search marketing business in history"

Judgments Worth Remembering

1. Joey Levin believes that IAC’s core advantage is not "seeing around corners," but "ensuring sufficient exposure when the future becomes obvious" — "Will travel become something where people get all their information through OTAs? That future is obvious. What’s uncertain is whether Expedia, Hotels.com, or Hotwire will win, so we take all three."

2. Joey Levin points out that the best customer acquisition teams are not those that "optimize to the extreme within marketing channels," but those that "reverse-engineer the product/supply to make the channel viable" — "Can’t make a profit on plumbers in Indianapolis? Then start with roofers. Do plumbers need 200 supply units to make it work? Go to the sales team and demand 200 plumbers. Don’t accept ‘this channel doesn’t work’; ask ‘what do we need to change to make it work.’"

3. Joey Levin believes the key signal for judging whether a founder/CEO is suitable for long-term partnership is "whether they talk about how to exit or how to build forever" — "If from the start they say ‘what multiple are we valued at, how do we exit,’ that’s usually a bad signal. For us, we want the mindset of ‘I’m going to conquer the world with this product.’"

4. Joey Levin suggests that a warning sign for CEOs is when "leaders shift from being obsessed internally to being obsessed externally" — "You have to focus externally, but you must be obsessed internally: what are you doing for your customers? Where is your product failing? When someone starts caring more about ‘what others are doing’ than ‘what we are doing,’ it’s time to consider a change."

5. Joey Levin believes the truly revolutionary innovation of Web3 and crypto is that "unique digital items can exist" — "Everyone knows unique physical items can exist, but no one ever imagined unique digital items could exist. Now they can, and this will change ticketing, fan clubs, and how brands interact with consumers."

6. Joey Levin emphasizes that IAC’s capital allocation principle is "don’t act by policy, act by circumstance" — "We don’t like selling stock, but if we can sell convertible bonds at a 50%-100% premium to the current price, we can accept it. The entire toolkit must always be available and subject to the same capital allocation discussion."

7. Joey Levin believes the core of IAC’s "anti-conglomerate" model is "not imposing limits on businesses" — "We don’t say ‘this business will never be sold,’ nor do we say ‘this business will never be spun off.’ All options are on the table. No asset is sacred or untouchable."

8. The most important lesson Joey Levin learned from Barry Diller is "constantly raise the bar and tolerate nothing that doesn’t work" — "Either fix it or throw it away. Don’t have the mindset of ‘we don’t really use this thing, but it’s no big deal.’ Either make it work or make it disappear."