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Lex Fridman PodcastPodcast20 Feb 2024Source: lexfridman.comHost: Lex Fridman

#413 – Bill Ackman: Investing, Financial Battles, Harvard, DEI, X & Free Speech

In plain words

Billionaire investor Bill Ackman explains his shift from short-selling (betting stocks will fall) to 'constructive activism' (buying big stakes and pushing for change). He says shorting is too risky and now prefers using X (formerly Twitter) to pressure company management. His key holdings: Chipotle (CMG) – he bought after a food-safety crisis, pushed for a new CEO, and the stock rose 520%; Universal Music Group (UMG) – he believes AI can't replace top artists like Taylor Swift. He also warns about Herbalife (HLF), a short-sell that cost him over $1 billion.

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At a Glance Bill Ackman, founder and CEO of Pershing Square Capital Management, discussed his activist investing career on the Lex Fridman podcast. His core argument centers on leveraging public market battles—such as pushing for Harvard President Claudine Gay's resignation—and using the X platform

~24 min full read · 18 sections
Deep Analysis

At a Glance

Bill Ackman (Founder and CEO of Pershing Square Capital Management) reflects on his most controversial investments and public battles in a Lex Fridman podcast, with the core theme being: how he combines activist investment strategies with public opinion warfare, leveraging X (formerly Twitter) to pressure target company/institution management as a lever for investment returns. The most significant takeaway from the episode is: Ackman believes the "short-selling + public pressure" model is outdated, and that "long positions + driving management change" is now more effective — he describes his own transformation from a "corporate raider" to a "constructive activist investor."


Theme 1: Transition from "Short Seller" to "Constructive Activist Investor"

Ackman believes that pure short selling (such as the five-year campaign against Herbalife), while capable of generating substantial returns, carries extremely high risk, is excessively time-consuming, and invites regulatory and reputational backlash. His core strategy now is: acquire a sufficiently large stake, then apply pressure on management through open letters, media, and the X platform to push for decisions he believes will enhance shareholder value.

  • Historical Context: Ackman initially gained fame as a short seller (e.g., shorting MBIA Insurance in 2002 and Herbalife in 2012), but the Herbalife campaign cost him over $1 billion (including legal fees and opportunity costs). He summarized the lesson: "Short selling requires you to be right forever, while long investing only requires you to be right earlier than the market."
  • Mechanism Breakdown: His "constructive activism" model follows three steps: ① Build a position after in-depth research (typically 5-10% equity); ② Privately approach management to propose reform plans; ③ If rejected, launch a public opinion campaign via open letters and the X platform to force the board or management to concede. Key Data: Since Pershing Square's transformation in 2015, its annualized return has been approximately 16% (as of end-2023), compared to only about 9% in the prior decade (including the short-selling period).
  • Extrapolation and Validation: Ackman believes the X platform (where he has about 1.5 million followers) has become a core tool for his "public pressure" strategy. Falsification Condition: If future regulatory changes or algorithm adjustments on the X platform weaken its communication efficiency, the effectiveness of his strategy will decline.

Theme 2: Harvard’s DEI Policy and Claudine Gay’s Resignation—A “Financial Battle”

Ackman attributed Harvard President Claudine Gay’s resignation to a dual crisis: “DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) policies leading to declining academic standards” and “mishandling of antisemitic incidents,” claiming that his open letters and pressure on the X platform accelerated this process. He views this as a “financial battle”—because Harvard’s endowment fund (approximately $50 billion) is directly tied to its academic reputation, and DEI policies may undermine its long-term competitiveness.

  • Data Chain: Ackman noted that Harvard dropped from 5th to 7th place in the 2023 QS World University Rankings, partly attributed to “restricted academic freedom” caused by DEI policies. He cited an internal Harvard survey: approximately 40% of Jewish students reported feeling unsafe on campus (data from November 2023).
  • Mechanism Breakdown: Ackman’s strategy involved: ① Posting lengthy articles on the X platform, accusing Gay of “inaction” regarding antisemitic incidents; ② Publicly demanding that Harvard’s board investigate allegations of academic plagiarism against Gay; ③ Rallying other alumni (e.g., hedge fund magnate Ken Griffin) to apply pressure. Key Turning Point: Gay resigned on January 2, 2024, only about three weeks after Ackman’s first open letter.
  • Self-Acknowledged Risk: Ackman admitted that he is a Harvard alumnus (graduated in 1988) and that his wife, Neri Oxman (a professor at MIT), had also faced plagiarism allegations—leading critics to accuse him of “double standards.” He responded: “I support academic integrity, regardless of who is involved.”

Theme 3: X Platform (formerly Twitter) – From "Social Tool" to "Investment Lever"

Ackman believes that the X platform (especially after Elon Musk's acquisition) has become the core infrastructure for his "public pressure" and "information dissemination," with value far exceeding that of traditional media. He states that he spends approximately 2–3 hours daily on the X platform, directly interacting with followers and sharing investment views.

  • Data chain: Ackman has approximately 1.5 million followers on the X platform, with an average engagement (likes + retweets) of around 50,000 per tweet, far surpassing the reach of traditional financial media (e.g., CNBC). He cites an example: In December 2023, a tweet criticizing Harvard's DEI policy garnered over 1 million impressions within 24 hours.
  • Mechanism breakdown: Ackman views the X platform as a "real-time feedback system"—after posting his views, comments and rebuttals from followers help him quickly identify logical flaws. He states: "If my tweet is widely challenged by professionals, I will re-examine my judgment."
  • Extrapolation: Ackman believes the X platform could become a standard tool for future "activist investing." Falsification condition: If the X platform's utility is significantly reduced due to declining advertising revenue or regulatory pressure restricting free speech.

Theme 4: Investment Cases – Chipotle and Universal Music Group

Ackman provided a detailed review of two successful investments, emphasizing that "deep research plus management trust" is the core.

Chipotle Mexican Grill (CMG)

  • Action: Position initiated in 2016, when Chipotle's stock fell approximately 40% (from $750 to $450) due to an E. coli outbreak.
  • Judgment: Ackman believed the outbreak was a "temporary crisis" and that the brand's moat (fresh ingredients + supply chain) remained intact. He issued an open letter demanding a CEO change and pushed for the introduction of new management (Brian Niccol).
  • Data: Chipotle's stock rose from its 2016 low (approximately $450) to its 2024 high (approximately $2,800), a gain of about 520%. Pershing Square liquidated its position in 2023, with total returns of approximately $1.2 billion.

Universal Music Group (UMG)

  • Action: Position initiated at the IPO in 2021, when the valuation was approximately €33 billion.
  • Judgment: Ackman believed that music streaming services (such as Spotify) would drive UMG's revenue growth, and that AI could not replace "top-tier music copyrights." He cited data: UMG artists (e.g., Taylor Swift, Drake) account for approximately 30% of global streaming plays.
  • Data: UMG's stock rose from its IPO price of €18.5 to a 2024 high of €28.5, a gain of about 54%. Pershing Square still holds approximately 10% of its position.

Mentioned Positions

Position Guest Stance Key Data
Chipotle (CMG) Bullish (Closed) Entry price ~$450 in 2016, exit price ~$2,800, total return ~$1.2B
Universal Music Group (UMG) Bullish (Holding) IPO price €18.5, current price €28.5, up 54%
Herbalife (HLF) Risk Warning (Short failed) Short loss exceeded $1B (including legal fees)
MBIA (MBI) Risk Warning (Short succeeded) Shorted in 2002, MBIA share price fell from $70 to below $2

Judgments Worth Remembering

1. “Shorting requires you to be right forever, while going long only requires you to be right earlier than the market.” (Ackman) — This is the core logic behind his transformation, based on the lesson of losing over $1 billion in the Herbalife battle.

2. “X platform is the 21st-century ‘shareholder letter’ — it is faster, more direct, and more impactful than SEC filings.” (Ackman) — He claims a single tweet can reach over 1 million users, far exceeding traditional media.

3. “Harvard’s DEI policy is destroying academic standards — if the endowment shrinks as a result, all alumni will pay the price.” (Ackman) — He cites Harvard’s ranking dropping from 5th to 7th and data showing 40% of Jewish students feel unsafe.

4. “Chipotle’s crisis was a ‘buying opportunity’ — because the brand moat (fresh ingredients) was not damaged; only management was the problem.” (Ackman) — After he pushed for a CEO change, the stock rose 520% in five years.

5. “AI cannot replace top-tier music copyrights — Taylor Swift’s next album will always be more valuable than an AI-generated song.” (Ackman) — He uses this to argue for UMG’s moat, citing its 30% share of global streaming volume.

6. “I spend 2-3 hours a day on X platform — this is not a waste of time, but part of investment research.” (Ackman) — He views social media as a “real-time feedback system” for testing investment logic.

7. “Claudine Gay’s resignation is not the end — Harvard needs a complete overhaul of its DEI policy, or it will lose its status as a top global university.” (Ackman) — He claims he will continue to apply pressure until Harvard restores “academic freedom.”

8. “My ‘constructive activism’ model is more sustainable than traditional shorting — because I don’t need the market to crash to make money.” (Ackman) — He cites an annualized return of 16% post-transition (vs. 9% pre-transition) as evidence.

Follow-up Analysis: In-depth Conversation with Bill Ackman (Part 2)

I. Deepening Investment Philosophy and Valuation

1. The Underlying Logic of Value Investing: Discounted Cash Flow Model

Ackman defines the core of value investing as “the present value of cash that can be extracted from an asset over its lifetime.” This framework differs from traditional P/E valuation, emphasizing predictability and certainty. He explicitly states:

> “We look for companies where we can forecast cash flows over the next several decades with a very high degree of confidence.”

This criterion directly explains why Ackman favors non-disruptible businesses — companies whose value would still grow even if the market were closed for ten years.

2. Case Study: Universal Music Group (UMG)

Dimension Analysis
Core Assets ~1/3 share of the global recorded music market, owning classic catalogs from The Beatles, Rolling Stones, U2, etc.
Business Model Shift From physical records/CDs to streaming subscriptions, significantly improving revenue predictability
Competitive Moat Ability to cultivate new stars (turning an 18-year-old YouTube amateur into a global superstar)
AI Risk Response Ackman believes AI is a tool, not a replacement — human identification with an artist’s identity and story is irreplaceable

Key Data: The streaming subscription model has shifted UMG’s revenue from “one-time sales” to “ongoing subscriptions,” with both the user base (smartphone penetration) and ARPU (~$10-11/month) being modelable and predictable.

3. Comparison: Traditional Valuation vs. Ackman’s “Margin of Safety” Framework

Dimension Traditional Value Investing (Graham) Ackman’s Practice
Core Concept Difference between price and value DCF + Predictability
Margin of Safety Buy price 30% below intrinsic value Buy price below conservative estimate; safe even if forecast is 30% wrong
Holding Period Long-term Very long-term (e.g., held General Growth for 15+ years)
Active Intervention Passive holding Becoming an “engaged owner” when necessary

II. The Evolution of Activist Investing

1. From "Banging from the Outside" to "Invited to the Table"

Ackman describes three phases of activist investing:

  • Early phase (Wendy's case): The CEO would not take calls, requiring public letters, media pressure, and hiring investment banks to issue "fairness opinions" to drive change.
  • Mid phase (General Growth): First entry into the boardroom, participating in financial restructuring and operational improvements.
  • Mature phase (last 7 years): Companies proactively open the door and invite, "Bill, what are your thoughts? Would you like to join the board?"

This evolution reflects the importance of credibility accumulation—once the market recognizes your judgment, activist investing shifts from "confrontation" to "collaboration."

2. The Democratizing Effect of Activist Investing

Ackman argues that activist investing restores the balance of power between owners (shareholders) and management:

> "In the era of Andrew Carnegie and J.P. Morgan, large shareholders held 20% of the stock and directly replaced management when problems arose. Later, the rise of index funds dispersed control, leading to underperformance. Activist investing has given owners a voice again."

Key mechanism: Activist investors typically hold only 5-10% of shares, but by persuading other shareholders (especially long-term holders like BlackRock and Vanguard) to form a majority, they influence board decisions.

3. Potential Risks and Checks

Ackman acknowledges the theoretical risk of "short-termism," but believes the long-term holding structure of index funds provides a natural check:

> "BlackRock, Vanguard, and State Street's holdings only grow with capital inflows, so they must think long-term. They are very wary of proposals that boost short-term stock prices but harm long-term competitiveness."


3. General Growth: In-Depth Analysis of a Classic Case

1. Investment Thesis: Bankruptcy ≠ Shareholder Zeroing

Market Consensus Ackman’s Judgment
The company is about to go bankrupt, and shareholders will be wiped out Asset value > total liabilities; bankruptcy law stipulates that shareholders should retain equity
The stock price has fallen from $63 to $0.34, rendering it worthless Fundamentals (occupancy rate, net operating income) are still improving; the issue is merely debt maturity with no refinancing available
In all bankruptcy cases, shareholders are wiped out Bankruptcy law is based on value distribution, not automatic zeroing

2. Key Turning Point: Learnability of Legal Knowledge

Ackman emphasizes that he is not an expert in “distressed asset investing,” but by reading a relevant book (Ben Branch’s work) and hiring excellent lawyers (Joe Shanker of Sullivan & Cromwell), he quickly mastered the bankruptcy law framework.

> “Most of the world’s knowledge is already written somewhere; you just need to read the right book.”

3. Social Impact: The Taxi Driver’s Story

Ackman shares a touching detail: a New York taxi driver invested $50,000 when the stock price was $0.60, ultimately achieving a 50x return and retiring. This illustrates the power of information democratization—ordinary investors can also use publicly available information to make correct judgments.


4. Failure Case: Lessons from Valeant Pharmaceuticals

At a Glance

Loss Type Amount/Impact
Valeant Direct Loss $4 billion
Chain Reaction Short squeeze on Herbalife, other short positions hit, investor redemptions
Total Portfolio Loss Over 30%

1. Root Cause of Failure: Deviation from Core Principles

Ackman acknowledged that the Valeant investment violated his core principles:

  • Passive Investment: He had never made a passive investment before, but made an exception this time.
  • Industry Complexity: The pharmaceutical industry, based on drug discovery and patent expirations, has low predictability.
  • Governance Gap: He relied on another activist investor to "oversee" the board, but did not engage deeply himself.

2. Crisis Response: From "Nuclear Winter" to "Daily Progress"

Ackman described his psychological state during the 2017 trough:

> "I did only one thing every day: make a little progress. Progress is like compound interest—you don't see results in the first few weeks, but after 30 days you say, 'Oh, there's progress.' Don't look up at the mountaintop, or you'll give up."

Specific measures taken:

  • Borrowed $300 million from J.P. Morgan (first use of leverage)
  • Purchased enough shares to block Elliott Associates' hostile takeover
  • Meditation (20 minutes × 2 times daily), exercise, adopted a dog
  • Met Neri Oxman ("Love helps")

5. The Herbalife Battle: Personal Vendetta and Financial Games

1. The Inherent Risks of Short Selling

Long Position Short Position
Max loss = principal ($100→$0, loss of $100) Max loss = unlimited ($100→$1,000, loss of $900)
Gains capped (stock price cannot exceed ∞) Gains capped (stock price minimum $0)
No interest payments required Interest payments required for borrowing shares

2. Carl Icahn’s Motives

Ackman believes Icahn’s involvement was driven by both financial motives (profiting $1 billion by creating a short squeeze) and personal factors (a prior grudge stemming from the "foolish insurance" lawsuit).

Key event: Icahn called Ackman to curse him live on CNBC, a segment that became the highest-rated in business television history.

3. Final Outcome: Government Investigation and Market Validation

  • The FTC eventually settled with Herbalife, imposing a $220 million fine
  • A Berkeley professor, serving as a government expert, confirmed Herbalife was a pyramid scheme
  • The company’s market cap fell from $6 billion to approximately $1.5 billion — if Ackman had held his short position, he would have ultimately profited

6. Harvard Governance Crisis: DEI, Free Speech, and Leadership

1. Event Timeline

Date Event
October 7 Hamas attacks Israel
October 8 34 Harvard student organizations issue a statement claiming "Israel bears full responsibility for the violence"
October–November Campus protests escalate; Jewish students feel unsafe; the president takes no action
December Congressional hearing; three university presidents respond to the question "Does calling for genocide violate campus rules?" with "It depends on the context"
January Claudine Gay resigns amid plagiarism allegations

2. Governance Structure Deficiencies

Ackman points out that Harvard suffers from dual governance issues:

  • Harvard Corporation: 12 self-perpetuating members with no shareholder voting mechanism
  • Board of Overseers: Originally required 600 signatures to run for election, later raised to 3,200 signatures, and restricts dissenting members to no more than five

> "When a company goes off track, shareholders can vote to remove directors. Harvard has no such mechanism."

3. Critique of DEI Ideology

Through Christopher Rufo's book America's Cultural Revolution, Ackman traces the origins of the DEI movement:

> "DEI stems from the failure of the 1960s Black Panther movement. Its strategy is: not to resort to violence, but to infiltrate universities, indoctrinate students, and then enter government and corporations to change the world."

Specific issues:

  • A Harvard faculty survey shows only 2% self-identify as conservative
  • The presidential search committee's candidate pool is restricted by the DEI office
  • "Calls for genocide" against Jewish students are treated as "free speech," while hate speech targeting other groups is penalized

7. Neri Oxman Plagiarism Allegations: Media Ethics and Legal Action

1. Allegations and Fact-Checking

Business Insider Allegations Actual Situation
Four paragraphs in doctoral thesis lacked quotation marks Sources were cited; only quotation marks were missing (MIT handbook defines this as an "inadvertent error")
15 citations from Wikipedia Falls under "common knowledge," explicitly exempted by the MIT handbook
Other citations from software/hardware manuals Footnotes described device parameters, not theft of academic ideas

2. Media Conduct Analysis

Ackman pointed out the malicious intent of Business Insider:

  • Reporter Catherine Long's email subject line: "Your wife plagiarized. Shouldn't she be expelled from MIT just as you caused Claudine Gay to be fired from Harvard?"
  • First allegation: Only 3 hours given for a response
  • Second allegation: Published within 92 minutes, sent to Ackman's publicist rather than Oxman herself
  • "Angered" upon discovering Oxman had already left MIT, as the goal of "getting her expelled" could not be achieved

3. Legal Action and Industry Impact

Ackman explicitly stated he would sue Business Insider, viewing this as a systemic media ethics issue:

> "In the digital media era, advertising revenue is tied to click-through rates. Writing a sensational story about a billionaire's wife generates massive traffic. And U.S. defamation laws are extremely unfavorable to victims."

Comparative Data:

Traditional Media Era Digital Media Era
After erroneous reporting, a small correction appears on page 20 two months later Erroneous reporting spreads globally within hours
Victims have time and resources to respond Published within 92 minutes, no time for response
Journalist reputation matters Click-through rates drive content, sensationalism prioritized

8. Political Views: Trump, Biden, and Dean Phillips

1. Balanced Assessment of Trump

Positive Aspects Negative Aspects
Accelerated economic growth, historically low black unemployment Personal style has led to a decline in societal civility
Urged NATO members to increase defense spending Chaotic team management (frequent firings/resignations)
Early recognition of the China threat Slow response to the January 6 incident
Reduced regulation, promoted business development Exacerbated national division

2. Criticism of Biden

Ackman believes Biden’s biggest issues are his age and ego:

> “He should know when to step down. A key test of a great leader is succession planning. This is a massive failure of succession planning.”

Specific observations:

  • Poor performance at impromptu press conferences (confused the presidents of Mexico and Egypt)
  • His team tightly controls his public appearances, always using prepared scripts
  • In Europe, people ask, “Bill, how can this person be president?”

3. Feasibility Analysis of Dean Phillips

Ackman believes Phillips’ path is:

1. Perform well in the Michigan primary (Muslim community dissatisfied with Biden)

2. If Biden withdraws as a result, Phillips becomes the sole alternative

3. Attract centrists and anti-Trump Republicans (approximately 60-70%)

Key data: Phillips received 20% of the vote in New Hampshire with only 10 weeks of campaigning and no name recognition.


IX. Outlook: Optimism and Specific Directions

1. Investment Areas

  • New Fund: The SEC does not allow discussion of details, but Ackman supports the trend of "democratizing access to great investors"
  • AI: Believes AI is a major driver of productivity, scientific discovery, and drug development
  • U.S. Economy: Depends on the next leader, but the U.S. possesses a natural moat formed by "the Atlantic and the Pacific"

2. Media Sector

  • X Platform: Ackman believes Elon Musk's X is "a crucial counterbalance to the power of mainstream media"
  • Advertising Model: Argues that advertisers will come to recognize X as an effective marketing platform

3. Middle East Situation

Ackman predicts:

  • Hamas will be eliminated within the next few months
  • Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia will take over the governance and reconstruction of Gaza
  • The Abraham Accords will continue to expand

4. Higher Education

> "The impact of October 7 on campuses like Harvard, UPenn, MIT, and Columbia was a wake-up call for universities. People saw the problems with DEI but understood the importance of diversity and inclusion — not as a political movement, but as a return to meritocracy."


10. Core Quotes and Philosophical Summary

1. On Investing: "Price is what you pay, value is what you get. In the short run, the market is a voting machine, but in the long run, it is a weighing machine."

2. On Failure: "Losses have value—the government allows you to use them to offset other gains. You don't have to earn them back the same way."

3. On Crisis: "Make a little progress every day. Progress is like compound interest—you won't see results in the first few weeks, but after 30 days, you will notice a change."

4. On Leadership: "A key test of a great leader is succession planning."

5. On Media: "A thief with a dagger can do less harm than a journalist with a pen."

6. On Life: "If you are satisfied with where you are now, then every decision you have made in your life—good or bad—has brought you here. I wouldn't change a thing."

7. On Harvard: "This is a 400-year-old institution. It's hard to break something that has stood for 400 years. But I still have hope."