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Colossus (Invest Like the Best / Business Breakdowns)Podcast27 Jun 2017Source: traffic.libsyn.comHost: Patrick O'Shaughnessy

Scott Norton - Seek to Learn That Which Cannot be Taught - [Invest Like the Best, EP.43]

In plain words

This is about Scott Norton, co-founder of Sir Kensington's, sharing startup lessons. He says real opportunities are in overlooked categories like condiments, not crowded trends. Sales must build trust before pitching benefits; culture is a free competitive advantage. Key holdings: Sir Kensington's (acquired by Unilever, still iterating recipes), Heinz (historical benchmark), Unilever (acquirer with aligned values).

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Scott Norton, co-founder of Sir Kensington's (recently acquired by Unilever), shared the core elements of business on the Invest Like the Best podcast: product, relationships, sales, marketing, and culture. His central thesis is to "seek to learn what cannot be taught." He begins with the history of

~12 min full read · 7 sections
Deep Analysis

At a Glance

Scott Norton, co-founder of Sir Kensington's (recently acquired by Unilever), shared the core elements of business on the Invest Like the Best podcast: product, relationships, sales, marketing, and culture. The main thread is deconstructing the underlying logic of entrepreneurship and business through a seemingly simple ketchup brand. The most impactful takeaway from the episode is: "Seek to learn that which cannot be taught" — true competitive advantage comes from areas with no ready-made playbook.


1. Finding Opportunities in "Ordinary and Overlooked" Markets

Scott Norton believes that true entrepreneurial opportunities lie in "ordinary and overlooked" categories, rather than crowded hot tracks.

  • While everyone else was focusing on snacks and beverages, Sir Kensington's chose condiments—a field dominated by giants and considered "impossible to innovate."
  • Key data: The team initially created 8 different ketchup formulations (adjusting the balance of five basic tastes: sweet, salty, savory, bitter, and sour), conducted blind tests with friends for scoring, and ultimately selected the optimal version.
  • The logic behind this "contrarian selection": Avoid crowded trades and seek undervalued opportunities in markets with low competitive efficiency.
  • In terms of brand positioning, it deliberately contrasts with Heinz's "American roadside diner" image by adopting an "English aristocratic" narrative—packaging in glass bottles instead of plastic squeeze bottles, and using language reminiscent of high-end European jams.

> "When everyone else is zigging, how can you actually benefit by zagging?"


2. The Essence of Sales Is Trust and Emotional Connection, Not Rational Persuasion

Norton emphasizes that the root cause of early sales failures was focusing solely on product features rather than building trust first.

  • Early lesson: The team pitched selling points like "made entirely from tomatoes, low sugar, non-GMO," only to receive responses like "We'll get back to you"—followed by silence.
  • Turning point: Inspired by Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, Norton realized that people are only willing to listen to your benefits after they trust you.
  • Specific approach: First establish common ground with chefs—talk about their passion for food, understand their challenges—and only then discuss how the product solves their problems.
  • Key analogy: Norton references the "IKEA effect"—people place higher value on things they help build. This applies equally to sales: letting customers participate in defining the problem is more effective than direct pitching.

> "You can't justify your pricing based on features. It's got to be on benefit. Very importantly, people are not going to be willing to hear the benefit unless they trust you first."


3. Stakeholder Model vs. Shareholder Model: The Competitive Advantage of Long-Termism

Norton explicitly advocates for stakeholder capitalism, arguing that this is the core reason Sir Kensington's maintained growth after being acquired by Unilever.

  • Stakeholders include: upstream (environment, suppliers), downstream (consumers), team (employees), and shareholders—all four are indispensable.
  • Alignment with Unilever: Unilever was founded over 100 years ago, with its founder building the Port Sunlight village for workers in the Victorian era, and its values align with those of Sir Kensington's.
  • Key judgment: The more purpose-driven a business is, the faster it grows. Norton uses Tesla as an analogy—if Tesla launched a hybrid vehicle, it would destroy its brand identity of "being the best version of myself."
  • Risk acknowledged by Norton: Consumers remain price-sensitive in channels like Walmart, and the stakeholder model is not a panacea, but "when people buy a product, they are declaring 'the person I want to be.'"
Model Stakeholder Model Shareholder Model
Core Objective Balance multiple interests for long-term sustainability Maximize shareholder returns
Representative Companies Unilever, Sir Kensington's Kraft Heinz (3G Capital)
Source of Competitive Advantage Consumer identity, mission-driven Operational efficiency, cost control
Norton's Judgment Faster growth, but requires ongoing validation Effective in the short term, may damage the brand long term

4. Culture as a Free Competitive Advantage: Values Drive Decisions

Norton argues that culture is not about ping-pong tables and beanbag chairs, but about the implementation and inheritance of values.

  • Sir Kensington's four core values:

1. Our secret ingredient is people

2. Act with honor even when no one is looking

3. Make condiments with character

4. Think long-term

  • Key insight: Culture is free—showing up on time, going the extra mile, writing down values and teaching them to the team—none of this requires a budget.
  • The founder's role shift: From "center of the universe" to "high priest"—not about conveying the vision, but teaching the team how to teach others that vision.
  • Kaizen (Continuous Improvement): Inspired by the Toyota Production System, Norton adopts the "ask why five times" methodology, believing everything is in beta—the product recipe has been revised 3-4 times and is still being iterated.

> "Culture exists in this very emotional interpersonal space and it requires a lot of leadership commitment but it's very powerful."


5. From the Known to the Unknown: The Temple of Poseidon Moment

Norton uses the "Temple of Poseidon" as a metaphor to describe the critical juncture of moving from the known realm into the unknown—the key to growth and innovation.

  • Origin of the story: In Greece, after sailors departed from the port of Athens and passed the Temple of Poseidon, they realized, "Now I must pray to the god of the sea"—transitioning from safe waters into uncharted seas.
  • Current application: After Sir Kensington's was acquired by Unilever, the 29-person team faced a global giant. The question was not "What is the script?" but "How to write the script."
  • Judgment criteria: When there is no ready-made manual and no established process, it often signals a genuine opportunity—"colonized territories" are too competitive.
  • How to maintain this state: Norton relies on co-founder Mark's critical perspective ("We have only just climbed a plateau, not the summit") as well as reading and seeking inspiration.

> "My life motto is: Seek to learn that which cannot be taught. Figure out what it is that you can teach yourself or that you can invent."


Mentioned Positions

Position Guest Attitude Key Data
Sir Kensington's Founder perspective, bullish Acquired by Unilever (2017); 29-person team; product formula revised 3-4 times
Heinz Historical benchmark, not investment advice Replaced sodium benzoate with vinegar 100 years ago; glass bottle innovation
Unilever Acquirer, positive assessment 100+ years of history; founder built Port Sunlight town for workers
Kraft Heinz Comparison target, attitude not explicitly stated Shareholder model representative (3G Capital)
Tesla Analogy, not investment advice Launching a hybrid model would destroy brand identity
Tom's Analogy, not investment advice Donates one pair of shoes for every pair sold
Vitacoco / Hintwater Mentioned, not investment advice Brands in Verlinvest's portfolio

Judgments Worth Remembering

1. "Seek to learn what cannot be taught" (Scott Norton) — True competitive advantage lies in areas without existing playbooks. You truly grow only when you know you are entering the unknown (the Temple of Poseidon moment).

2. "You benefit by zagging when everyone else is zigging" (Scott Norton) — Sir Kensington's chose condiments (a common, overlooked category) over trendy snacks/beverages because the former has low competitive efficiency, is dominated by giants, but is "mature enough to be disrupted."

3. "People only listen to your benefits after they trust you" (Scott Norton) — Early sales failed because the pitch focused solely on product features (whole tomatoes, low sugar, non-GMO) rather than first building an emotional connection. Inspired by Dale Carnegie, he started by asking questions, finding common ground, and understanding the other party's challenges before discussing solutions.

4. "The IKEA effect" (Scott Norton, citing) — People place higher value on things they helped create. Sir Kensington's had friends participate in blind taste tests to select the recipe, creating a sense of community as "co-creators," which was more effective than direct selling.

5. "Culture is free" (Scott Norton) — Showing up on time, going the extra mile, writing down values and teaching them to the team — none of these require a budget. Culture is not about ping-pong tables and beanbag chairs; it is about the grounding and transmission of values.

6. "The stakeholder model grows faster than the shareholder model" (Scott Norton) — When consumers buy a product, they are declaring "the self I want to become." If Tesla launched a hybrid, it would destroy its brand identity. However, Norton also acknowledges that this model requires ongoing validation in price-sensitive channels like Walmart.

7. "Kaizen (continuous improvement) means we are all in beta" (Scott Norton) — Inspired by the Toyota Production System, he adopts the "ask why five times" methodology. Sir Kensington's ketchup recipe has been revised 3–4 times and is still being iterated.

8. "Don't be a go-getter; be a go-giver" (Scott Norton, quoting his grandfather) — Giving (helping others, building relationships) is the best long-term investment, yielding unexpected returns that cannot be planned. Early investor Keith Miller, who "took a gamble" without any social proof, became Norton's role model.